[00:00:00] David Finkel: How to get and defend or preempt people from ghosting. What is their view of how to make a better hire? We don’t just find a great person, but we get them embedded quickly and effectively in our company from a recruiter who gets to do this thousands of times, whereas a business owner might do this dozens or hundreds of times every year.
[00:00:21] Introduction: Now we’d mastermind presents the business coach podcast, answering your questions and providing real actionable insights for building. Better, stronger, more profitable business without sacrificing your time, life, or freedom anymore.
[00:00:44] David Finkel: Hi, and welcome to the business coach. I’m David Finkel, your host. In this podcast, we’re gonna get the chance to visit with Darrin Carr, head of Carr Talent, a recruiting company that’s been working with small to mid sized companies now for years. Darrin’s background comes from working as a senior. Uh, head of recruiting, head of HR for a large multi billion dollar company.
[00:01:05] He’s built his own recruiting company and he’s done it with some fairly cool models where he’ll do combination of success fees and or just straight hourly on the recruiting side. Um, Darrin is somebody we’ve used now ourself to hire in the Maui companies. We’ve had coaching clients of ours use him in this interview.
[00:01:22] Some of the things that we’re gonna be talking through that you’re gonna hear about are how to get and defend or preempt people from ghosting you. I don’t know if you’ve ever had the experience where somebody, um, right after you’ve hired them, doesn’t even show up for the first day, or you’ve set up the interview.
[00:01:37] Uh, for them and they don’t show for the interview or two weeks into the process, they disappear on you. So we had a really rich conversation about ghosting. I also asked Darrin about what is the inside, um, view of hiring from a recruiter who gets to do this thousands of times, whereas a business owner might do this dozens or hundreds of times every year, probably in the dozens.
[00:01:59] Darrin and his company do it thousands of times every year. What is their view of how to make a better hire? How do we deal with compressing the timeline in a tight labor market? In the conversation, Darrin even shared some pretty important stats about where we are in the hiring process. We also talk in the interview about how can you make the onboard more successful?
[00:02:19] So we don’t just find a great person, but we get them embedded quickly and effectively in our company. So enjoy the interview. Darrin’s a great guy. Here we go. Well, Darrin, welcome to the business coach. How are you doing today?
[00:02:33] Darrin Carr: Really well, David. Thank you. Always a delight to speak with you. I’m very happy to be
[00:02:37] David Finkel: on your podcast.
[00:02:38] Well, I appreciate it. So one thing I want to start off here was talking about, we’re going to just do a little bit of current stuff. What I mean by that is the, the, the labor market and the economy always change three years ago as a certain way, three years from now, it’ll be a different way today, it’s a little bit, you have an interesting perspective because you’re the one, your company card talent does lots and lots of recruiting and hiring for, for small to midsize companies.
[00:03:04] And as a result of that, you know, you guys talk with thousands and thousands of applicants. Uh, for various types of positions, you look at the economics. You can see how many people are responding. You get to see lots of stuff. Plus you pay attention to that. Give us a quick snapshot. What’s the state of the labor market right now?
[00:03:22] Whatever your thoughts here is a, you know, as a person in a company that does so much hiring and recruiting.
[00:03:28] Darrin Carr: Yeah, good question. And I’ll maybe start by clarifying applicants, but also recipients of outreach because those are kind of two different buckets. So we get the response from the people who, uh, you know, who we’ve, uh, who are responding to an ad, but yet we also are getting, uh, we know what’s going on, people who are already happily employed.
[00:03:45] Uh, but generally for the United States, the labor market consistently remains very strong and continues to outperform expectations. For instance, Last month in March, 300, 000 jobs were added. That was over 200, 000, was predicted by the Fed. The month before, 275, 000 jobs. There’s been so many, more than two years of consecutive job growth that it’s contrary to what a lot of people may think is the case, but unemployment edged lower again, 3.
[00:04:21] 8%. It was 3. 9%. Even though the labor force participation rate increased substantially. So wages rose, unemployment dipped. The bottom line is the A players, they usually have great jobs and they’re usually pretty happy with them. The one thing that has come with these statistics I’m giving you right now with how many jobs are out there and is the effect that it’s having on small businesses like mine and Um, you know, and so many others are like me is, you know, things like, you know, ghosting on interviews, ghosting on showing up for the first day of work.
[00:04:57] Very common now are much more common ghosting after being on the job for two weeks, but it all results in it to be a little bit more of an impact on small businesses with there being so many jobs. 60 percent of the small businesses, uh, like mine, those of 250 people or less, Can’t find, uh, the people they need for their position, uh, and that’s 10 million jobs total.
[00:05:21] So, uh, the, the, it’s a robust labor market. There’s a lot of jobs available.
[00:05:26] David Finkel: Yeah. It’s interesting. You said something, I’m going to come back to this idea of ghosting, whether it be in the interview stage or you’ve, you’ve hired the person and they just didn’t show up or they show up and then all of a sudden, two days or two weeks later, they don’t come into work.
[00:05:38] And the cultural norm about giving notice and, or being straight is changed. And we’ll talk about, you know, perhaps some strategies about how we. As a running a business can can protect ourselves from the absolute frustration and the maddening sense of of rage Maybe i’m putting too strong of words.
[00:05:55] That’s how I feel about it when that happens, but we’ll leave that be for a moment So I want to start off now that we kind of look at you know, we’re in a tight labor market. We get that Um, what are some of the dumb mistakes you watch? Individuals or companies make as they go about hiring, and I’ll give you an example of what I mean.
[00:06:13] Like one of the one of the things I see coaching clients as mistakes. They make that we have to actively help them to to do it better again and again, which is they they go and they hire based off of an acute need. I have to find someone to do X and they start scrambling to find that person. And they never take that the 30 minutes to an hour to really sit down and clean up specifically, what’s the job to be done roles, responsibilities, how is it that this person creates the most value, really getting clean on that so that they can write down how we’re going to measure their performance so that they and the company know they’re doing good that first step and then next from there is to go back and say, Hey, Hey, who specifically do we need to hire to do this job and produce these results exceptionally well.
[00:07:06] And how do I take that, that candidate profile and put it to my four to five non negotiable must haves. And usually, as you know, cause you’ve, you’ve worked with a lot of our clients that you do recruiting for. We call that the hiring gold standard. They come to you and say, here’s the role defined out.
[00:07:23] Here’s the candidate profile, including our must haves. Help us find this person who can do this role exceptionally. Well, the average person in business, they just go and do it. Oh, I’ll know it when I see the person. And as a result, they hire the wrong people for the wrong reasons at the wrong time, and then they say, hiring sucks.
[00:07:42] So I’m curious for you. What are some of the mistakes? I mean, you, you get an insider seats. Like I get an insider seat as a business coach. You know, we’ve got several hundred companies that we work with who hire collectively, you know, thousands of people every year, but I’m not involved with all that as a coach, I might touch them when they’re making just their most important hires, their, their leadership or management level hires, you get to see a lot more than that.
[00:08:07] So what are some of the mistakes that you see? that we can just put on the table so that our listeners can can improve upon that.
[00:08:15] Darrin Carr: Yeah, good question. And I have enjoyed and appreciated in the past when I’ve been at your many live Maui sessions, which I have gained from both personally and professionally, when I have heard you say something to the effect of, and I totally agree, that 15% of the work of finding someone appropriate for your job and for your for the role and for the company is done before you ever reach out to a recruiter or or put a job posting in.
[00:08:42] So 100 percent I would say rushing to hire is the, uh, is one of the most common mistakes. I would back it up just a little bit and say, make sure this is the right position you’re hiring for. And, uh, we do have a tool for that. Uh, if anyone’s interested here, any of my Maui. to pass along, but it basically involves building out, you know, taking your, um, your, uh, company structure, um, and, and looking at it, like, what do you want that to be?
[00:09:09] Um, you know, uh, the tree in the, in a year or three years and five years and, and planning out, you know, where you believe you will need the right talent at the right time. Um, and, and, you know, when you’ve done that enough, do you understand what your next hire is? Um, is it is certainly, um, uh, laying out all those things that you need.
[00:09:28] Those those in top five non negotiables and top five. Nice to haves and, um, and and using those and ranking those, which we highly recommend as part of our Um, candidate assessment path, which is a tool we provide our our, uh, Maui colleagues, um, in in ranking how how you would rate each attribute skill experience, you know, in that they need to bring to bear for the position to do well.
[00:09:55] So not only listing them, but ranking them. That will help you later on, too, when you’re ranking particular, um, candidates against each other. This one was a four in this category. On work, let’s say work ethic, and this one was a three. On experience, this one was a four versus a four. So, all that will certainly help out, but a very flushed out, detailed job description, uh, is what you’re Um, that’s meaningfully thoughtfully put together certainly helps, uh, in an inaccurate job description is one of the biggest causes of somebody quitting within the first several weeks or a couple months.
[00:10:28] Uh, it’s just simply not what the job description, uh, said. And there is a lot of discontent involved in there. Um, I have, um, you know, rushing to hire, you know, just to expound on that. And I have other common mistakes I see, but hiring the first or second person that. That that comes, you know, before them and they get excited and some people just like everybody naturally.
[00:10:49] And that’s a great trait to have as a human. But as an interviewer, we need to be objective. This process, this, this candidate assessment path or what we call the hiring blueprint. Um, much the same thing really is, uh, uh, steps to be as objective as possible. And, um, and that that’s what this, you know, nothing brings clarity like comparison.
[00:11:11] So we say don’t hire the first or second person. Wait for the third or fourth. If you can keep it all moving expeditiously and not having great people fall out of the process because the average a player right now on the market only about 10 business days before they’re gone. So that’s the, you’re right.
[00:11:26] That’s one of the most commonly.
[00:11:27] David Finkel: Let’s, let’s stay with what you’ve got there for a second. I want to, I want to dive deeper into a couple of things and unpack some. So you just dropped something. It was a bit of a bomb and it’s a good bomb, right? If there is such a thing, maybe it’s a wrong analogy, which is this idea of the timeline on hiring that based on a tight labor market.
[00:11:44] Where in a looser market, we might have four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks or longer from the point of first, um, serious discussion with a candidate to actual, um, doing the hiring in today’s world, we have to compress that process. Um, and how do we compress that process intelligently such that we still have a good fit with with with being able to discover who’s right for us or wrong with us?
[00:12:08] So, um, do you notice? I’m curious with with your clients where that 1 of the mistakes you you might observe is they go too slow on the hiring. They, they, they make it take too long and so that there are good candidates disappear on them. And all that’s left are the people that don’t have other choices.
[00:12:26] Darrin Carr: That’s 100 percent true. That’s 100 percent true. And one of the biggest, um, uh, mistakes in hiring is waiting for the perfect candidate while all the other very good ones fall off. That is, uh, 100 percent true. Um, yes, I, that, that is the case. And so, um, you know, what we recommend there is to, um, And I have heard, you know, I know that you folks at Maui deliver some of the same advice we do here.
[00:12:50] And that is, you know, keep your A players hot. And it’s how to, you know, how to reel in your perfect hire without ever making an offer. I know we share similarities in what we advise there. But when you’re in contact from the minute that a candidate, a player, you start to see them emerge after the first or second interview, that you should be in contact with that person every couple of days.
[00:13:10] And you should be asking questions like, how’s it going? What, cultural fit? Um, do you have any concerns? Do you have any questions? Are you talking with any other companies? Oh, you are. Um, oh, could you do me a personal favor? Would you not accept any offers before you talk to me? Uh, it’s impressive how much that works and they come back to you with that.
[00:13:27] But 100 percent if you draw it out too long, you’re going to people are going to drop off without any explanation and you’ll never hear from them again. So you need to have a plan for each of those eight players. calendar anyway that you’re going to be in contact with them every at least two days in the process while you do your three to five candidate touch points on your way to making sure that the right candidate.
[00:13:49] David Finkel: I love it. So let’s let’s keep going on this. So one thing that we, uh, that I’ve observed when I, if I’m coaching a client, I’ll commonly tell them something along the lines of. You know, in the, I’ll give two kind of coaching tips here, and then this might riff off of anything else that this sparks for you, Darrin, we’re just going to kind of bounce back and forth here.
[00:14:05] So when I’m coaching a client, one tip that I’ll give to them is to make sure that in part of your hiring process is to really, it’s part looking for in selection, but it’s also part sales where you’re selling them on you. And rather than saying the good stuff, here’s what I will commonly do somewhere.
[00:14:23] Once I know that there are a candidate that is merits this, I’ll ask them a question like, you know, You know, Darrin, tell me here. Um, what is it about this role and working with us? You’ve done your homework. We’ve had, you know, uh, you know, this is our second conversation. We’ll have one more after this, before we make our final selection of who we’re going to hire.
[00:14:44] But tell me based on what you’ve learned about us, what are your two or three biggest reasons why you want to be here? Why is this the right home for you? And so I’ll like in any sales process, you’ll give the answer and then I’ll restate it back. So I’m hearing is, did I get that right? And it really helps to root them.
[00:15:00] The second comment I’ll make, and I think this is really important, which is, you know, before I do that second interview, if I’ve got that first good interview and they’re great candidate, you know, I’ll say to him, I’ll say, look, you know what, um, I think that you’re likely going to be one of our strong candidates.
[00:15:15] Our, you know, our way of doing is we go to, we find three very strong candidates and we make our choice from those three. I think that you’re likely to be that where, where else are you looking yourself? And then I’ll ask, I’ll say. If we’re 2nd choice for you on any of these pieces, then then we don’t have the right fit.
[00:15:32] You know, we’re looking for someone who really wants to have a great long term home with us. And that means we have to be their 1st choice. So I just want to ask you at this stage. We’ve just spent an hour and 12 minutes talking Darrin. I think I would like to progress you to those final points of that next.
[00:15:49] Um, interview. But before I do that, I just want to ask you, is this a role that you really want to do? I get we still have other things to talk through, and we’re not ready to choose you just yet, but you’re a strong candidate. And before I progress, you, I just want to make sure, is this what you want?
[00:16:04] Because if it’s not, just tell me no harm, no fail. And I find that those are two things that have been effective. What are some other things that you found have been effective? In terms of speeding up that point and keeping your best people engaged you talked about, you know Having multiple touches every few days is one you’ve talked about that.
[00:16:22] How else are we compressing the hiring timeline? Give a few four
[00:16:25] Darrin Carr: major four major touch points. Um, and i’ll review them very briefly I actually have a guide on this and a video on this for anybody who’s interested But uh number one at the very the very first question we ask in any interview is along these lines david It’s it’s uh, it is You Can you tell me before I even tell you about the job or the role, uh, or the, or the company, let me ask you what is important to you in a company home?
[00:16:49] We’d love to ask that question, number one, because number one, it shows we care, the client cares. A lot of people maybe don’t, or they don’t show the inclination that they have that. Number two, it shows us right away. If core values may align from what they tell us is important to what is important to, to our client partner, uh, and that’s super important longevity.
[00:17:08] We hire for four things here, uh, hungry, humble, smart, and good cultural fit. What they tell us on that
[00:17:13] David Finkel: was good. That was really good. Say it again. Hungry,
[00:17:16] Darrin Carr: hungry, humble, smart, and good cultural fit. Hungry. There’s a reason for it. The reason they get up and hustle could be what our job is to find out what it is and how strong it is humble.
[00:17:28] They’re willing to learn. They are coachable, uh, smart, lots of kinds of smart. What we want is solution smart. A boss. I have this challenge. I thought it through. Here’s two solutions. Which do you think I should go with? They’ve already thought it through. So. That’s the first step is we ask what’s important to you and we file that information away because later on when you’re presenting the package, not making an offer, they’re presenting the package.
[00:17:51] We want to recap. You said this, this and this was important to you within little later on. We talked about this, this and that. We provide that and also XYZ looks like a pretty good, uh, fit to me so far. Does it not to you? That’s that’s the first check in then the second check in was after the first or second interview that I was just mentioning Hey, you know you did pretty well.
[00:18:12] You’re you’re rising in the upper tier of candidates Tell me what are you seeing as far as fits? What do you have any questions or concerns? Are you speaking with other companies, etc? The third step occurs when you are in a, um, uh, situation in which you are really, uh, understanding that this may be the person that you want to present the package to.
[00:18:33] And in that case, We suggest a test a test. Um, closed like you would with a sale. Hey, listen, candidate, you’re really, um, you know, doing well here in this process and floating to the top. If we were to make you an offer, would you accept? And then based on their answer? Yes. Great. If not, then dig in. Why?
[00:18:54] David Finkel: I love it.
[00:18:55] Keep the what’s number four. What’s the fourth touch point? I’m going to come back and touch on and riff on two things you said.
[00:19:01] Darrin Carr: Okay. Sure. Uh, and I think our internet connection is a little low, so hopefully you can still hear me. But, uh, and then the fourth one is, is, is that, uh, that locking in your perfect tire without making an offer.
[00:19:12] And that, and that, you know, and that is essentially, listen, you can feel, this is, you can feel, you know, very well about the way you’ve comported yourself. We want to bring you on happy. We feel like you’d be a long term pillar. It’s the offer of presenting the pack. It’s the process of presenting the package.
[00:19:29] I should say, um, you know, we, you know, for that reason, you know, we put together this, this and this, uh, we really feel like it’s going to bring you, uh, you know, happiness for you and your family right now and in the future. Certainly we can revisit this if it makes sense, et cetera, uh, but, uh, you know, last thing anybody wants here, dear candidate is a messy back and forth between your current employer or another company.
[00:19:52] So here’s, here’s what we’re presenting that, that, that, that, that, that monetarily as importantly, dot, dot, dot, dot. A non monetary ability to take on more responsibility, make a meaningful impact in the community. All the things that have become, a lot of the things that have become more important to people since the pandemic pivot.
[00:20:09] So those are the four, the four pivotal steps. So
[00:20:11] David Finkel: one thing you did, and I want to make sure anyone who’s watching or listening to this noticed it, twice you talked about in your touch points about letting the candidate know that he or she. That they’re doing really well, that they’re impressive, that they’re rising to the top.
[00:20:24] It’s the idea of giving them hope about it. Otherwise they’re going to rationalize. I should look somewhere else because they’re like you, they’re, they’re sorting through different opportunities. And so giving them that hope makes them want, we want to be wanted without. We don’t want to lose the being in the chair of the person doing selection because that forces them to be more in the selling themselves chair and the chair of eagerness, because there’s two chairs in any interaction.
[00:20:51] To put them in the eager chair, I have to be in the chooser or reluctant chair. So I love that. And then something else you said here, you talked about a test close. So let me just give to anyone watching this or listening. Here’s the, the way we would coach. If you were a client of ours, here’s exactly what we would say to you.
[00:21:06] Hey, we would say it this way, you know, somewhere, if somewhere at the roughly midpoint, Or, before the two thirds of the interview process is done, I want to ask three questions of them that I think are really important, quote unquote, test closes. And so if I’m doing, you know, two interviews, it might be somewhere toward the midpoint of interview two, and it just goes like this and Darrin, you’ll know this because you’ve heard us say it all many times.
[00:21:32] And you’ve helped us make a lot of hires inside the Maui company. You’ve helped us find lots of great team members over the years, which I’ve appreciated, but we’ll say we’ll ask about money, decision makers and timeline. Hey, Darrin, I know it’s still early in this process. But if we do pick you, the role we’re thinking is going to be somewhere at a base of somewhere between 80, 000 and 90, 000 with an on target earnings with the bonus and commissions of probably closer to 120, 000 to 130, 000.
[00:22:01] Um, are we in the right neighborhood with you? Because if we’re not in the right neighborhood, I’d rather find that out now while you and we have some really good other choices. So I just talk about neighborhoods, and I do that early, knowing that whatever range I give to you, I better be prepared to come toward the upper part of that range because no one believes that they’re not an A player, even if they’re a C or a D player.
[00:22:23] The second thing we ask about, Darrin, on our side is we ask decision making. So we say something along the lines of, Hey, Darrin, you know, just want to ask you, you had mentioned earlier that you have a significant other. How does your significant other, they probably know you really well. What do they think?
[00:22:40] Do they think this is the right opportunity or maybe they think that there’s a better or something else they should do notice. I’m just, I mean, you know, this, cause you know, all the employment laws and hiring. I’m never going to ask about their wife, husband, spouse. They have to bring that stuff up because I’m not going to discriminate based on marital status, but it is perfectly appropriate if I ask all candidates that are far enough along the process and I can do it generically, if they haven’t told me.
[00:23:05] And I can do it specifically if they’ve shared the information, how does this partner in life? Look at this. What it does is it preempts them later on coming back and saying, I have to talk with my husband, wife, significant other. And so we ask that there and we’ll say, you know, how does he or she feel about this?
[00:23:23] Because they’re sitting in the selection chair. 99 out of a hundred times they say, Oh, they think this is the right opportunity. Really? What was the reason for why he said that? Do you feel, why did she feel that way? It’s part of the sales process. The third thing that we do is we ask about timeline.
[00:23:39] Cause I don’t know about you, Darrin, but I’ve been so frustrated where I find the right person, nowhere along the lines that they mentioned anything. I get them going and all of a sudden I say, great, let’s get you started. And I say, Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I’ve been planning this four week vacation now for the last seven years of my life.
[00:23:55] And I can’t start, you know, I can’t start on January one. I can’t, I can’t start until, you know, May, May 1st. I know I’m making a big caricature exaggeration. And so we can preempt that by saying, look, Darrin, if, if we do end up selecting you, what does it look like to get you started? Like, for example, let’s say we pick you today is Tuesday.
[00:24:15] Let’s say we pick you on Friday. What does it look like the timeline to get you started? And I just bring it up and almost everyone’s going to say immediately to, I need to give two weeks period of notice. No one ever says, well, I have this dream vacation every once in a while. They might say, I have a family event for a long weekend.
[00:24:33] I’m going to do. I like uncovering that right away. And what it also does is it reduces the amount of ghosting that I get because I’m embedding them in this future pacing of what would it be like if we were to do that? What are comments that sparks for you? Because again, I know our thinking on hiring is very similar.
[00:24:50] Darrin Carr: Yeah, no, only that I would 100 percent agree. And we do, uh, those steps in a little bit of different way, but particularly the, the age old, um, block you, uh, for a while until you can go off and get a better offer from your current company. Another company is I need to talk to my significant other, or so we do the same thing.
[00:25:09] Is there anybody in your life? That’s a good way to put it. Uh, you know, Yeah, that, uh, that you thought you, that you think that you know that you’ll want to consider, um, uh, talk to before you consider, uh, accepting this job. Should we, you know, come to that point? Um, you know, is that something you think you’ll feel like you’ll be able to take care of before we get to Friday when we hope to make our final decision?
[00:25:31] David Finkel: I love it. I love it. Is there anybody in your life? I just wrote that down. I’ve got now two and a half pages of notes here, which is good stuff. Let’s do this here. Um, as a recruiter, Your company has an interesting perspective on this. And so here’s what I want to ask you. The next piece is, um, when you are actually, let me just, first of all, it’s even step back.
[00:25:51] So, you know, I had mentioned this in the introduction that your company is also a coaching client of Maui Mastermind, which is fantastic. Um, and so one of the things I find as a client, they get the best result when they are willing to hear outside input from someone who’s got a, you know, a deep skill set or an expertise or experience in an area.
[00:26:17] And I guess I’ll ask you what for you, how, how has it been for you and in your team for them taking ideas from coaching? And actually embracing and putting him to practice. How has that been getting your team and you to be able to do that? I’m curious.
[00:26:34] Darrin Carr: Yeah, well, it’s interesting. You should ask because we have the most phenomenal Maui coach.
[00:26:39] Um, and I commonly will have. Uh, team members meet individually with me what meet with me or sometimes even individually with her. Um, and I, I, I feel like it’s part of the hiring process in identifying those who are our number three core value is up is embrace continuous improvement. So there are.
[00:27:01] questions that we like to ask, you know, around that, you know, what’s the last book, podcast, et cetera, that you consumed? How did it affect your life? So I’m, I’m mentioning to you that, uh, uh, the process by which we get people in here who are, uh, open to coaching or hopefully are, usually almost always are.
[00:27:19] And so, um, Here, uh, you know, at Cartel, uh, we, uh, we, we recognize the value of a good coaching program, and especially when you have a brilliant coach like we do. So really the proof is in the pudding, uh, with what she has been able to accomplish for us and the initiatives that, you know, that she has suggested or worked through with us.
[00:27:38] And so, um, because we’ve shown the results to our crew, look, we listened to her. This came from, uh, this came from this coaching source. Isn’t this amazing? we’d like you to participate. Um, that’s how we, we just provide a little bit of testimonial, a little bit of proof. Um, not that we need it. I mean, they trust us anyway, but it’s nice to, uh, you know, to put some proof behind the pudding, uh, in terms of what kind of coaching can be available to them.
[00:28:01] David Finkel: So here’s where I’m leading to that part. So, you know, the, the ability to take input. I’m hoping now that someone watching and listening now is going to be more open to take your input as well. Someone who plays the recruiting role. So I’ve watched that recruiters can do something that the average business person just can’t do.
[00:28:19] So one thing that recruiter can do that a business person can’t do as effectively is they can go outbound. They can actually go to people who have existing work and, and cherry picked who might be interested in. And if I call up. You know, Sarah Smith, who is really well respected in our industry. Maybe she works for a competitor or a supplier or a vendor.
[00:28:40] And I reach out to Sarah Smith doesn’t have the same result. Then if Darrin or, you know, Carolyn or one of your other team members reaches out to, to this person and you say, and they says, Hey, I’ve got a client who I’m recruiting for that has this type of opportunity. Is this something you’re open for?
[00:29:00] Just take a moment here. Give me your insight about that. Because most people, the only way they can think of hiring is they, they might look for referral hiring or their place ads and they’ll get an inbound pool, but they miss out on the opportunity to go outbound and they’re just not very effective with it where a recruiter can, can actually do that with a little bit of impunity comment about that.
[00:29:22] Darrin Carr: Yeah, for sure. That that’s one of the biggest, um, that’s one of the biggest, um, opportunities with us. That’s one of the most values we provide is we are not relying upon. And by the way, you need to make sure if you’re when you’re selecting a recruiter that how much outbound they do, uh, because the dirty little secret of a lot of recruiting agencies, they just post ads like you can on Indeed.
[00:29:43] And that’s their candidate pool. And who knows why? I mean, I’m sure we know in this day and age, there are reasons why people are unemployed. Um, with the churn that we’ve seen in the last few years. And so we want to not discriminate there and to be careful about the way we ask about that. But, um, you are, uh, you know, in large part, um, if you don’t pay the very big dollars for the very big databases where we can gather a bunch of great looking profiles in one folder and hit one button and hit send all of them.
[00:30:12] I mean, definitely having the efficiencies and then, You know, we’ve got the time, the tools, the expertise. That’s, you know, that’s unfortunately what limits some of our, uh, our partners, our client partners is they don’t have that, you know, very expensive software nor the time to scan through three or 400 profiles a day.
[00:30:31] Um, the opportunity cost there alone is, is, is a lot, but there are, there are ways that companies can do some, some outreach, but there, uh, that I can mention, but there are a bit more limited than what we can do.
[00:30:43] David Finkel: Yeah, well, let’s stay with it. So I loved your comment, the dirty little secret that they’re going to be doing.
[00:30:46] Some companies are gonna be doing the same type of sourcing that you can. Let’s come back to it for a moment here. What if you had one or two tips, coaching suggestions to help a company more effectively gather a great candidate pool? What one or two coaching suggestions would you give to a business person to help them gather the best candidate pool?
[00:31:07] Darrin Carr: Yeah, if they’re not going to be using a recruiter and first of all, if they are to vet that recruiter and ask for testimonials and ask for their process and ask for people they can call. Um, I get that occasionally and well, we have testimonials and we, I get, but I occasionally gather, you know, people who were happy, are happy with us and that, you know, Can call, but you know, in some where people can look outside of a recruiter, really, you know, the kind, it’s always, you know, a, BR, always b, recruiting.
[00:31:35] It’s really everywhere, all around you at all times. So you’re not forced to one jump rush at the end when you need somebody, but. conferences, business communities, masterminds, asking your colleagues, Hey, listen, we’re thinking about hiring a salesperson. Is there anybody you might know or might know anybody?
[00:31:51] And that’s the question you need to ask is if you don’t, if you’re not, you know, if you’re not interested, do you know if anybody else is interested? Business partnerships, affiliations, um, uh, social media, referral programs you’ve mentioned. What I might mention also, too, is exterior referral programs. I don’t know why, uh, you might not offer a thousand dollars for anyone at all.
[00:32:12] Doesn’t have to be in your company, outside your company that refers you to, uh, candidate that you end up hiring. Uh, it’s, you know, uh, pretty cost efficient in that way. Higher education schools around you getting in touch with the people with the job boards there. Same with community, you know, community connections and trade groups holding hiring events.
[00:32:31] There are ones in person, but there are also virtual hiring events that are can be even followed up with Three or four or five minute interviews after oh, you’re interested after you heard me talk about the company for half an hour Well, hey, we’re just slotted here in the next Uh, you know hour or hour and a half and you can pop back on we can chat and then candidates you just hire Who else do you know?
[00:32:51] You’re great. We really appreciate what you’ve done for us. Who else do you know? That’s like you,
[00:32:57] David Finkel: you can’t see it here. I’ve scratched. I’ve got all, I’ve got all five. I’m going to come back through. I love ABR always be recruiting this idea that how can I start building those relationships? Even if I don’t have the position, just if there’s good quality people, I was coaching one of our clients that runs a manufacturing wholesaling business.
[00:33:14] Uh, in aerospace. And I was, you know, his key hire is someone who plays a role of a, of a nurturing base. Um, account management sales process where there it’s very relational. The person has to be very engaging, but it doesn’t require a lot of technical skill. It doesn’t require a lot of sales skills. And I asked him, I said, where did you find your best people?
[00:33:36] And he said, well, if I look at my best three salespeople, they all came from hospitality. Um, restaurants, they worked as a server or they worked at a front desk of a hotel playing that role. And I just laughed. I said, well, how often do your you and your wife Nikki go out to dinner? The next time you find a great waiter or waitress, get their contact information, whether you have the position now, you know, start doing it.
[00:33:55] So I love that. A B R two. You said exterior referral. Um, programs. I love that. I, I, we do internal, but it never occurred to me to go external and be willing to pay, right? It’s much more cost effective. Like you said, I loved your hiring events in person online and I love, you know, if it’s a type of position where I can hire someone out of school or trade organization or some kind of professional organization, those relationships, you know, I know for a lot of the companies we work with that there might be a trade school nearby or a, uh, a community college that they have a deep relationship with or a university or one of the law firms.
[00:34:28] Yeah. They have a really good relationship with a particular law program, and he probably picks up two or three attorneys a year from that program. Um, I loved it. And then you also said the internal referral program. Hey, we just hired you. Who else? You know, that’s great. Just keeping an eye on the clock and time wise.
[00:34:45] Here’s where I want to ask next. Um, I think this is important. Um, when we talked before about ghosting, I, I think this is topical and relevant. Wherein, you know, I, I have a great candidate, the interview is set for Tuesday at at noon, and they don’t show, or I have a great candidate, I’ve actually hired them.
[00:35:06] They don’t show for day one or they show for the first two weeks and disappear. So what are some of the ways we can preempt that or, or defend against it? Like I’ve given a couple here, like, one of the ways is in that interview process asking about things like, you know, why it is they want the position and how it fits their life and.
[00:35:26] What is their other important people in their life feel about this opportunity relative to the things they’re looking at and talking about the money early and the timeline for hiring? I’ve got a few more I want to share, but I’m curious, what are some of the ideas you have to combat that massively frustrating trend?
[00:35:43] Which I think this is a bad cultural trend and I’m putting a value to it. Maybe it’s unfair about ghosting. What are your thoughts about how we can protect against that or defend against that?
[00:35:53] Darrin Carr: Yeah, well, I’ve given the four areas in which I think, uh, um, well, I’ve given a few suggestions about what can be done before the hire.
[00:36:01] I do have a guide on what to do after the hire as well. Um, I would, uh, take care of, you know, like I said, be contacting the people who was hired on. You know, every couple of days during their two week time period that they’ve put in notice, um, get all the important paperwork done something I like to do.
[00:36:18] I don’t do it all the time. But, um, what I will do is like, Hey, congratulations on this position. You know, this is really, really a great fit here. In celebration, I’d like you to take you and, uh, a significant other, someone from your family, anyone that’s special to you, out to a dinner to celebrate. I mean, that’s how great we think this is, uh, you know, and please, uh, you know, expense the, the charge back to us.
[00:36:44] So any important paperwork, Um, any, um, their calendar upcoming if you’ve got a, uh, onboarding counter and certainly here’s another big area of improvement for a lot of companies is their onboarding program. And, uh, it starts when that person’s hired. And not necessarily the first day they show up on site so that they already feel involved.
[00:37:07] They’re filling out benefits papers. They see their calendar. Maybe there’s a gift basket. I know some companies do that. It’s quite nice. Um, but it is just intertwining those people as much as possible into the company before those two weeks come up and they may or may not show up.
[00:37:22] David Finkel: I love it. One of our clients that I work with, they, they gave their person early on business cards.
[00:37:26] They rushed out the first hundred business cards. Just so the person started seeing themselves this way. I loved your idea here. So, um, the celebratory dinner. Um, that’s great. What are some of your tips after the point of hire? So we’ve got the celebratory dinner. We’ve got the pre involvement for the show up.
[00:37:44] What about the onboard? What are some suggestions you have for the onboard briefly?
[00:37:48] Darrin Carr: Well, I think that first of all, it’s got to be, I think, very specific and a day to day and outcomes needed. You know, you’re going to study. You’re going to do this today. At the end of the day. We’d like to be able to do this at the end of the week.
[00:38:05] You know, we’d like you to be able to do this. So it is just very sketched out. It’s very stepped out. They feel like it’s it’s organized. It’s going to be different for every company. for having me. But, um, there, uh, we, you know, like I said, we do have a brief course that we have, uh, put together that, you know, we’re providing free for, for folks that has, like, a lot of little tips, um, but those would be my main ones.
[00:38:25] They really just have it stepped out, be thorough and have check marks where they can say, did this, know this, got this, I’m in, everything’s good.
[00:38:33] David Finkel: I love it. Hang on one second here. Did this, know this, I’m good. So you talk about there, this, this, the onboard, and I loved your idea. Hey, at the end of this day, at the end of this training, at the end of this week.
[00:38:44] Here’s what you’ll be able to do. You’ll be able to do X, Y, and Z. I like that forgetting the onboarding part from a, just a training perspective. I mean, I’ve been training now for 30 years and that’s really good. Just, uh, uh, technique about, Hey, let me frame this at the end of this training. At the end of this day, at the end of this meal, here’s what I want you to be able to do to know.
[00:39:06] Um, I think that that’s fantastic. We, we talk about the first hour, the first day, the first week, the first month, the first 90 days. And just having given that some thought, and I think your comment about the pre involvement, I really like that, you know, whether it be the gift basket idea or the dinner or the business cards, those are all really good.
[00:39:24] Um, two more things that I found that have been really helpful for the ghosting side. Um, when I’m evaluating candidates, I’m curious as a recruiter, you probably have seen more resumes than I’ve seen. Um, I don’t know. I’ve, I’ve seen several thousand at least in my career. You probably are in the tens of thousands and, um, they probably all look the same at this point into different categories.
[00:39:45] But 1 thing I look for in the resume myself is, you know, what’s the pattern of job history? And I always look, look at with a little bit of, it’s a little minor warning flag when I see them put down. Um, really nonspecific things on their resume in terms of timeline, you know, in, in 2012 to 2014. I worked here in 2015 to 2017.
[00:40:07] I worked there. I want to know the dates with that part. Um, I don’t mind there being some gaps in there. If the gaps are intelligently and reasonably there. But when they, when they have it perfectly seamlessly overlap, I wonder about that. And, and if there’s lots of radical change, past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior.
[00:40:26] I, I, I noticed from that part. I’m curious what else comes to you that you might even be able to spot in the interview process, um, that would give indication that you should get this person out quickly, that, that they’re probably not the one you want to invest energy on.
[00:40:42] Darrin Carr: A little bit of a tip that, uh, similar to what you’re doing is to help me identify the gaps to the right hand side of each job.
[00:40:48] I will put how long they were there, 1.2 years, nine months, uh, 2.2 years. Then I can kind of see, I can get the trend. And if it’s 1.2987, then I know I gotta really dig in, uh, at least give ’em a chance to explain while the short why the short tenures. in the position. So, um, I, I look for those. Um, um, there, I do like it when people explain why they’ve been out of the Salesforce, uh, for a while.
[00:41:14] It could be a personal situation. Um, and like I said, the last few years have, have showed some tumult in, uh, in, in, in jobs. So we do want to dig in and find out why that is. But some other, aside from gaps, what we need to see and what I, what I don’t like to see is lack of any metrics. Uh, in my opinion, the first three bullets could be what they did in the last two should be what they accomplished.
[00:41:38] Sales went up 22. 8 percent in the fourth quarter rep of the year in 2022. I need to see those things. Uh, so those that’s what we look for specific metrics or accomplishments, track records of increased responsibility. I’m not saying it’s a red flag if you don’t see it, but it’s certainly it’s certainly a green flag.
[00:41:56] If you see within the same company, there’s three tiers promoted, promoted, promoted, love to see that they’ve taken on more. They want it. They can handle it. Um, and some, it just shows that someone gave them, gave them the chance and they made the most of it
[00:42:09] David Finkel: there. And you share some really great ideas here.
[00:42:12] Um, I love it. So at this point, how can someone get to get ahold of you with this part? And just again, let anyone know. And we’ve used Aaron. He’s, I don’t know, at this point, probably eight or 12 of the team members. We have his company is recruited for over the last five years. He’s recruited for clients of ours and I’ll put out there, whether you’re, you’re doing it yourself.
[00:42:35] Um, I tell people all the time, look, you’re not going to have a perfect track record on hiring. If you can get yourself. 50, 60 percent success rate. You’re doing fairly well. 70 percent is outstanding, which means that you’re still going to have one out of three hires be bad, even if you’re doing it exceptionally well, it just, you’re not going to have that work, that higher workout all the time.
[00:42:54] And if I look at my past track record and I see that it’s one out of three. I can definitely improve on that, but I should be, I’m going after that 50, 60 percent trending toward the 70 percent success on the hiring side. So I know you’ve done lots of hiring for various clients of ours, which we’ve appreciated.
[00:43:10] They’ve all given good feedback. So, I guess, how can someone get a hold of you if they want to find out more? Um, or to get your your input on how to make a higher. How do I get hold of you, Darrin?
[00:43:22] Darrin Carr: Yeah, and, uh, two things. First could not would not be here without my partnership and my membership to Maui. I cannot say how much it has multiplied and, uh, really, uh, made us so much more solid and professionalized.
[00:43:37] Um, and so I can’t recommend, uh, the Maui coaching program. enough. Uh, and so to get ahold of us at simply car talent dot com c a r r dot excuse me car talent c a r r t a l a n t dot com or Darrin d a r r i n at car talent dot com two r’s in car Um, but yeah, happy to help with any of the, we have a ton of full on complete guides.
[00:44:03] We share them with all of our, um, Maui brethren, uh, regardless. So you just let us know what you need. We’ve got a tool for it and we’re happy to share if anybody wants to reach out. I
[00:44:11] David Finkel: really appreciate that, Darrin. Thank you for sharing the last 45 minutes of your life with us. We really value the expertise on the hiring and the recruiting side that you bring.
[00:44:20] Thank you, Darrin.
[00:44:21] Darrin Carr: It’s been a pleasure. Thank you.
[00:44:23] Mhm. Mhm.